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gathering ideas !!!!!!!!

Old 04-19-2004, 05:33 PM
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Tom
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Default gathering ideas !!!!!!!!

ok ,
got a minor leak on the rear cylinder on my softail
now this only leaks if the bike is started and run for a few minutes and then shut down,( not really warmed up much )
seems to be at the rear of the head where the head meets the cylinder, ( head gasket )
Now this doesn't seem to leak , if started up , about a minute and warm enuff to ride. Rode about 1/2 hour, easy and hard .
Get home, shut it down and no leak, looked next day , nothing.
So it doesn't seem to be all the time,
It seems to be kind of an oil gas mixture, not pure oil nor pure gas.
This is only like 3 drops or so, just enough to need be wiped off.
The cylinders are black, so it doesn't show up well.

Is this some normal Harley thing?
or maybe head gasket seaping at certain temps?
Can this be re-torqued?
Or proly replacment be the better way to go .

But it does seem to be the harder its rode, then no leaks at all.
Very strange,,,,,,,,,

Ideas, advice welcome.........
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Old 04-20-2004, 04:43 AM
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Tom, sounds like it's time to replace the cylinder gaskets (rocker & base).....easy job, just takes a little more time on the rear than the front. If I were you I would go ahead and change out the front at the same time (do it right the first time).

Also get a set of "James" gaskets instead of the MOCO gaskets, they are much better in the long run. (MOCO cylinder gaskets are ****)

Get a shop manual if you don't have one for the torque values when you put it back together.....if you need any tips, or help let me know. It's not hard....you can do it.

FBR
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Old 04-20-2004, 05:10 AM
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thanks FatBoyRider,

Now as being an auto mechanic all my life , I suppose this would be a simple or a do-able task.
But as I know next to nothing about a S&S or Harley engine,
I do have many concerns,
Would these gaskets be the same for the S&S as they would be for a Harley?
Can this all be done while the engine is in the bike?

I do have a manual,
any special little tips, tricks I should be aware of on these type engines?
For example, most state to re-torque the heads after run and warmed up , on a car engine,
So usualy you'll add an extra 5 lbs of torque, to eliminate this process.


As this isn't the usual dirt bike, or something that really is not of too much concern,
I'm a little concerned on this (what is very special bike to me)
Just nervous I guess, but it shouldn't be much different than any other mechanical engine or car , etc.
I 've done many a rebuild on engines ,gas and deisel and know alot about those.

I 'll proly throw in a set of rings at the same time,no sense in having it all a part and not doing that .
Check the valves for proper seating,
aproximatley how much time are we talking ???

Thanks for tips, answers.
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Old 04-20-2004, 07:12 AM
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Tom, I replaced the cylinder gaskets on a friends EVO a few weeks back.....It took me about 2 hours or so, but that was just replacing the gaskets.

You need to remove the tank, the front is easier than the rear since there's more room up front. Raise the back wheel off the floor, put the tranny in fifth gear so you can roll the motor to get the pistons to the top of the stroke before you do each cylinder.....as far as torque, I just snug them to what the book says....works for me.

FBR
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Old 04-20-2004, 08:42 AM
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roll the motor to get the pistons to the top of the stroke before you do each cylinder.....

This seems strange to me ,
wouldn't I have more room to remove the cylinders if the pistons were lower?
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Old 04-20-2004, 10:07 AM
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As I read thru the book,
am confused, are there or aren't there any pushrod adjustments??

Are there bolts underneath the rocker arms that make it necessary to remove the rocker arms in order to remove the heads?

As you can clearly see I've never , ever been inside one of these engines, So if my questions are on the dumb side , or out of line, please excuse .

And your 2 hours is seeming to turn into 2 days so far for me.
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Old 08-03-2004, 04:43 AM
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ok , haven't changed these gaskets yet ,
so went to a local bike shop
estimate is $400.00
Now I know I can't afford this,
And do have the mechanical ability to do this.
But am not understanding the pushrods?
Yep read and re-read the book,
Can someone give me a hand on the pushrods?
Are they adjustable?
any do's and don't on these push rods?

Is this leak possibly an intentional thing that SS has put in their
heads/gaskets?
I changed the plugs and all the leak is now gone.
Seems like unburned gas/oil mix
So is their some desgin that allows the unburned fuel/oil to leak?
because one day I over choked it and fouled the rear cyclinder, it really leaked then,
But after removing and cleaning the plug all was ok.
no leak,,,,,,,
Am so confused over this leak.
Their is no compression leak here, like a normal blown head gasket.

Or by now it would have really developed into a burn thru and ruin the head/cyclinder.


any recomendations on a good ring compressor?
don't need top of the line, tool, just a decent one.

advice is always welcome,
thanks
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Old 08-03-2004, 04:33 PM
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Tom, i will try and help you out here as much as can:

Have you ever worked on a vw beetle motor before since youre mechanically inclined?
If so, the lower part of a harley cylinder and pistons is basically the same, i know this sounds wierd, but its kinda true.
Im not sure if youve replaced your gaskets or not...if not.....run a compression test on the bike, if it is a seapage on the head gasket, then you should recognize it with the bike hot with a compression difference of more that 10 pounds.
OK, the other thing is go get you some racing gas, dont run much, only about half gallon to full tank so you can smell it burning, if the bike leaks again, you should be able to smell if gas related. if its definetly oil, theres only one place it can come from and thats the head. it can be leaking from the intake boot going around the head, blowing back, called blow by, or from the head. you realize this is an ALUMINUM motor and TORQUE SPECS ARE VERY IMPORTANT!
Do it by the book! have heads checked by local machine shop to make sure not warped. pay attention when tearing it down, and replace the head bolts, just the tops. very important to replace head bolts.
As far as pushrods go, you have to have adjustable ones, you can use orginal, but i like adjust mine out, so you can adjust the pushrods.
contact S&S about gaskets and what they prefer you to run, nothing wrong with James at all, just sometimes SS is picky. been through it before with head gaskets.
Local parts store has ring compressors with the pliors and you can remove your sleeves.

you asked.."Are there bolts underneath the rocker arms that make it necessary to remove the rocker arms in order to remove the heads?"
YES

I hope this has helped you.
Kelly
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Old 08-03-2004, 06:58 PM
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nope haven't replaced any gaskets yet.
Have worked on a few VW's but that was years ago.
But never had a VW engine apart.

I understand all of the above;
now to this part :
As far as pushrods go, you have to have adjustable ones, you can use orginal, but i like adjust mine out, so you can adjust the pushrods.
I cannot find anything in the book as to what the adjustments are.
I'm used to seeing some type timing mark ,or some type gauge to measure topdead center, or something to let me know where things must be for the push rod adjustments. and then set in thousands, similar to a race engine with solid lifters.
Using a dial indicator for precise measurements.
As with any motor this is critical.
and I can't find any information on this at all.
I'm either looking way to hard or its very simple.

I apreciate this line:
ALUMINUM motor and TORQUE SPECS ARE VERY IMPORTANT!

I would agree 100%

but a lousy engineer design and specs when it says
"to torqure to 12-14 lbs and turn 1/4 turn more."


To help clear up any mechanical skills
I've been a mechanic all my life,
from auto's ,transmissions,clutches,differentials,engine rebuilds,gas and deisel
Body work,painting
32 years on Miltary Equipment, mostly deisel
Hydraulics,air systems,electrical systems,fuel injection systems,brakes systems air and hydraulic, and air over hydraulic.
A machinist for 8 years.
So something in there should cover what I need to know.
Thanks for the info.
Still need pushrod info.
this is what I have :
Rotate camshaft to lowest point (on base circle of camshaft)

"Insert the round end of the correct color coded male adaptor
(part of pushrod height gauge tool HD part number HD 34199)(Now I sure don't have that tool )
through the pushrod opening in the cylinder head , from the bottom side.

and on and on.

They are looking at a color setting?
Do these color settings have numerical specs????
Like in thousands???
or is it just plain zero clearence? (cold, I would expect)



Thanks for all your help.
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Old 08-03-2004, 07:48 PM
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OK, lets see....

pushrods adjust in a common sense form. when your front cylinder is on the intake stroke the back cylinder is on the exhaust (compression) stroke.
with the intake valve open on the front you can adjust the exhaust and on and on.
with the exhaust open, adjust the intake. the secret to adjusting, is no backlash, but you can rotate them unless you have hydraulic lifters......thats the way to set solid lifters.
On hydraulic lifters....they will have an inner and outter shell, and they work similiar to small block chevys without the lock on top. to adjust you gotta get the oil out of em, the inner part will come out of the lifter easily. and you will see oil. you can get out with atowel or suck it out with a syringe. place the centers back in (they have a name, but im tired and its late) ..adjust them no lash and no up and down movement. but you can still turn them. when you tighten the lock nut down, be sure not to make them too tight. it will happen cause the threads can stretch. if you get a J and P Cycles book (free from their website or i can send you tons) you can find parts in there and they are kind of self explanatory.

ON tighten the headbolts............ when you tourque and loosen and tourque and loosen, and tighten to 36 pounds, and 32 degrees, what i do is i follow instructions on the first one, then i check with the torque wrench to find a total number. it takes some time, but its easy enough. theres nothing fancy to what
you are doing. you need to see a break down of the bike motor and it will make it alot simplier. Once you do it once, it doesnt take long to tear one down.
you asked
"They are looking at a color setting?
Do these color settings have numerical specs????
Like in thousands???
or is it just plain zero clearence? (cold, I would expect)"

answer...its just plain zero clearance...from factory they do have colored pushrods, but most of the time, if you do any boring or cam replacements you are either going to cut them out or take the heads off. most everyone changes camshafts for lift and duration unless you have a sportster then you change all four cams. in your case its just one.
Remember you are on a motorcycle and leaks have always been on motorcycles, recently billy had a oil leak on front cylinder coming from a rocker plug and the wind blew it back onto the oil tank (oil that is, texas gold) haha...and it made him change the oil lines and fittings on tank and one day at a red light he always check the temps and such and rubbed the front head and it was leaking out of the rocker box, 2 dollar seal and oil leak on tank stopped...funny how **** happens.
Thats about it i guess...need more info, just holler.

YOU ARE LOOKING WAY TOO HARD AND IT IS VERY SIMPLE.
Kelly

ps. tom dont get macho like some men do and not listen, ive been around bikes since i was 12 and im 37. i work with my husband who runs his own bike shop and auto mechanic shop. i work as bike shop manager. Im the one who runs the bike shop.
I do have alot of men when im trying to explain something, want to talk to billy or one of my mechanics other than me, on atleast 4 different occassions, ive had them talking to me then go ask, Brad, who also works with us, or shaun my other bike mechnic, and they till them go see kelly or billy...if billy cant be found..then its ME.
I built my own ****. just cause i dont ride anymore because of the accident, i still work on them.
If fatboyrider cant help and i cant help, then i will find away to help you, even if its billy hisself who does nothing on a puter.
I too have done some work in body work and painting...im not so good at the body work and i only do it on bikes, mine or hubbies, and friends. never for a living, just for fun. I really love painting. i will post a couple pics of my paintjob on billys bike which im the proudest of.
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Old 08-03-2004, 08:02 PM
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Default best paint job

Im not an artist nor painter, ive never worked with an airbrush before and thought id try it. igot the idea from one of billys easyrider mags.
Im only showing one side, cause the other side i sorta screwed up a tad, but he rides it anyway..you really cant tell unless you compare the two sides, i just screwed the triangle shapes up a little on the other side thats all.
The color is really no color, i like mixing colors and seeing what i come up with and thats what i did.
Kelly
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Old 08-03-2004, 08:07 PM
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Whatever Kelly says.....and it's obvious she's probably forgotten more than I'll ever know...lol

But, like she said, once you do these things they are easier the next time. And as I always try to tell people V-twin motors are not "rocket science"....it's just an internal cumbustion motor just like the Briggs & Stratton on your lawn mower...same principals.

With a shop manual, a parts manual, and a good set of tools you can do 90% of your maintenance yourself.....and the part I love about it is knowing "I" did it myself. And each time you learn more.....

FBR
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Old 08-03-2004, 08:12 PM
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exactly what FBR said...the feeling that YOU DID it your self makes you feel great...he also said like a lawn mower...also like a volkswagon.
And im not sure what he meant by that first comment.
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Old 08-03-2004, 08:20 PM
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It means...you can keep your scooter running, and keep the yard mowed

FBR
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Old 08-03-2004, 08:21 PM
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amongst other things
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Old 08-04-2004, 04:03 AM
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harleycat,FBR,
thanks for all this help, all sounds lots better now.
So I would guess that the HD Service manul is incorrect by stating
the torque for the head bolts is 12-14 ft lbs??
and it should be 36 ft-lbs per your specs? + the 32 degrees
and I don't see any tighten loosen info at all
just tighten in sequence 1,2,3,4 varied amounts at a time til the last tightening.

an harleycat there is no macho here,
I am listening !!!!!!!
and paying Great Attention !!!!!!!!!!!

next step is to tear in down, to see what is exactly in there.
its already stroked, and proly cam'd .
as I need to know what the bore is before purchasing new gaskets.

any lock-tite used on the blots any where?
which type lock-tite?
red,blue,yellow,green?
again thanking you for all this detailed info .
Nope never done any trick painting, flames,etc
just straight colors.

your pictures look good ,can't tell any differences thru the computer,
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Old 08-04-2004, 09:41 AM
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i dont see any need to use locktite, what if and when you have to tear down again..you will have hard time getting bolt out, and maybe strip it.
Kel
ps yes, you can tighten 1234, or in a star pattern, i like doing it in a star pattern.
Remember after doing all this you have to give it a break in period. Just dont go out there giving it hell.
After first run, go back and tighten bolts again after its cooled down.
Kel
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Old 08-04-2004, 11:44 AM
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please re-state which torque is correct .?
So I would guess that the HD Service manul is incorrect by stating
the torque for the head bolts is 12-14 ft lbs??
and it should be 36 ft-lbs per your specs? + the 32 degrees
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Old 08-04-2004, 03:25 PM
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Tom,
While at the shop today, i looked some things up for you in OUR books

Ive attatched a picture i tried drawing for you for the proper order of torquing. i know i told you, you could go in a star pattern, as you can, but books at the shop state to do it the way ive drawn out for you in the attachment...do it that way so i dont lead you astray.

Next thing, for each cylinder head, you need to start with bolt number 1, in the number sequence ive attached you want to tighten the bolts in 4 stages.
1 tighten each bolt to 7-9 pounds
2 start at number 1 again and tighten to 12 to 15 pounds
3 start at number 1 again and tighten to 22-25 pounds
4 start at number 1 again and tighten to 36 to 40 pounds
This is used with James gaskets and S&S gaskets!
sorry about the confusion on this..i stated about 36 pound before, because thats the last torque, im sorry i should have told you to begin with to do it in 4 different stages.

you are going to have to clean and lubricate them headbolts before tightening them, you know that right? you dont want any dirt or grime on them. it can cause wrong torque readings and or add friction

if you reuse oem pushrods, you are going to have to follow color pattern which is...
front exhaust..green
front intake...yellow
rear intake...blue
rear exhaust ...purple

sorry for any confusion hope this helps.
Kelly
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Old 08-04-2004, 03:41 PM
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forgot the attachment, now i cant get the damn thing small enough...
I will try later, if i cant get it small enough with my program, then i can either email it to you or even mail it to fbr and see if he cant get any smaller than i can.
K
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Old 08-04-2004, 07:27 PM
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harleycat ,
Well at this point I don't know what type pushrods are in it.
yep clean bolts for sure, and I did understand the multiple tightening stages. This is used on many engines.
For the pictures you can send to my mail

[email protected]

thanks again for all this information, as it will help imensly
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Old 08-04-2004, 07:51 PM
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sent to your email and youre welcome
k
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Old 08-05-2004, 02:07 PM
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well I acomplished one thing today,
Slid the pushrod tube open enuff to see,
yep it does have adjustable pushrods.
An now on to some real experience questions,
Seeing as how this has Harley bottom cases.
proly the 14 lbs for head torque would be more right.
So will the James or SS gaskets be worth the purchase?
seeing I won't be able to torque them at 40lbs?
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Old 08-05-2004, 05:12 PM
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Tom....yes use the James gaskets...worth every penny.
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Old 08-05-2004, 07:22 PM
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you have harley cases and S&S heads???

yes use James either way
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Old 08-05-2004, 11:41 PM
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yea, the guy that had this before
had the SS cylinders/heads,stroked to make it 96"
all in the Harley cases to keep the orignal serial numbers.
SS G model carb,thunderheader,
not sure what the cam is.
but can't contact him, so am on my own for all the spefic details.

So the James gaskets will compress correctly ? even at a lesser tourqe ?

Does anyone have a James link for getting a gasket kit???
thanks again for all this help.
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Old 08-06-2004, 05:42 AM
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Hey Tom,

James gaskets are still fine.
to torque the head...

1st..7 to 9 pounds
2nd 12 to 14 pounds
final torque, 1/4 turn measured at 90 degrees on each bolt.
The last stage isn't a torque setting. Instead you turn the headbolt 90 degrees further from the last torque setting. This will give you a final torque value somewhere between 30 and 35 ft lbs. the last time I checked, S&S has you torque the heads in 4 stages with the last setting at 35lbs.

I hope this helps.

S&S has a website....www.sscycle.com

you can just about order james through your local bike shop, they can order you some. JP cycles, Drag Specialties, etc.
Kelly
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Old 08-06-2004, 06:12 AM
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harleycat
thanks for the link,
I went nuts trying to find a James link.
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Old 08-06-2004, 01:12 PM
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thats not a james link to the net...i just gave you S&S for you to check out.
as for james gaskets, as i said...you can just about order james through your local bike shop, they can order you some. JP cycles, Drag Specialties, etc.
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